post

Divorce or no divorce: the raging debate

When the Gabriela Women’s Party filed House Bill No. 1799 (Divorce Bill, for brevity), the long dormant debate over the legalization of divorce in the Philippines was revived. Since the effectivity of the Family Code in the late 1980s with its provision for marriage annulment, the divorce issue has taken a back seat with most people thinking that annulment is just as good as divorce especially since one of the grounds for annulment, the psychological incapacity of one of the parties to fulfill marital obligations, can cover almost anything.

But annulment is not the equivalent of divorce.

Grounds for annulment must exist at the time of the marriage. And in cases of alcoholism, drug addiction, homosexuality or having a sexually transmissible disease, there must have been concealment at the time of the marriage, the concealment constituting fraud.

In other words, if one of the spouses turns into an alcoholic, drug addict or a homosexual, or acquires STD during the marriage, annulment is not available to the aggrieved spouse. Annulment is not even available in case of repeated violence or attempt on the life one spouse by the other. The only recourse is legal separation which does not allow remarriage because legal separation does not dissolve the marriage but only allows the couple to live separately and to have the community property (or conjugal property, where proper) dissolved.

Divorce, on the other hand, dissolves a valid marriage and the parties to the dissolved marriage acquire a new civil status — divorced. There is no declaration of nullity; the divorce judgment simply ends the marriage.

The Divorce Bill specifies the grounds for divorce. To make it simple, the grounds are the same as those for legal separation OR psychological incapacity to comply with essential marriage obligations OR irreconcilable differences. And it is that part about “irreconcilable differences” that make people think that the Divorce Bill is promoting whimsical divorces, Las Vegas style. But more on that later.

First let’s go deeper into the issue of divorce in its more generic sense and take on the “usual” arguments against it. Who are the usual antagonists?

There’s the Catholic Church, of course, and all other groups that follow its thinking that “what God has put together, let no man put asunder.” And that’s really saying that the law must bow down to the standards set down by the church which, of course, is ridiculous unless we accept that the principle of separation of church and state is merely lip service.

Marriage is many things. It is a social institution, it is a religious sacrament and it is a legal concept with a lot of legal ramifications. Although the law recognizes the authority of religious officials to validly officiate marriages, religious ceremony is not a requirement for valid marriages. There is a curious mindset among Catholic Filipinos that civil marriages are “not real” unless followed by a church wedding. Not so. A civil marriage is a valid marriage in all counts whether or not it is followed by a church wedding.

Divorce pertains to the legal dissolution of the marriage. Whether or not the church recognizes it is its own funeral. The important thing, for any aggrieved spouse at least, is that divorce grants him or her certain rights and deprives the other of certain rights too. For instance, it allows the aggrieved spouse to remarry and deprives the guilty spouse of the right to demand financial support. My goodness, if you were married to a drug addicted person, wouldn’t be a relief to know that he can’t touch your earnings anymore?

Now then, the most common argument of the “moralists” against divorce is how it leads to the breakdown of families. I will concede that strong family foundation is the backbone of a stable society. But what does a strong family foundation consist of? In a family where the husband repeatedly physically beats up his wife or children, or both, whether or not as a result of drunkenness or drug abuse, and the wife is obliged to stay with him because there is no law that allows her to get out of the marriage, are we looking at a strong family foundation? What kind of children grow up in families like that?

Is the physical togetherness, the image of being a “whole” family (which is really more apparent than real), the benchmark of a strong family foundation?

Then, the question that begs to be asked but rarely is. Does there have to be violence or neglect or some incurable status (like alcoholism or drug addiction or homosexuality) for a marriage to fail and the aggrieved spouse be entitled to relief (annulment, legal separation or divorce)? Married couples, in successful marriages at least, share common visions. Perhaps, not all, but they share common things. Like, how to be financially successful to provide for the children. Or how to treat the in-laws issue (are in-laws, for instance, entitled to financial support?). Or how savings ought to be invested.

Let’s say that in this serious times of economic depression (a persistent situation in the Philippines), the husband, in order to contribute more to the finances of the family, decides to sell drugs. Not use drugs himself, just sell them. The wife finds out, disagrees with his methods, and the issue grows more and more serious as the husband refuses to give up his lucrative sideline. The family, including the children, are exposed to a life of crime. Figures, right? You engage in criminal activities and your cohorts know who you are and where you live and you endanger your family. What’s the wife to do?

Unless the husband is convicted, the wife cannot file for legal separation. You know how long it takes to get a conviction? Years.

Worse, there is the question of whether the wife becomes an accessory to the husband’s crime. She accepts the profits from the crime, use them to feed the family, and that makes her an accessory and criminally liable. Actually, even if she does not use the profits, there will always be a presumption that she does.

Wouldn’t it be simpler, and better for the children, if she can just file for divorce citing “irreconcilable differences”?

I know instances where the couple simply outgrew each other, started going in different directions in life, set different priorities and goals, and the marriage just went stale. People don’t stop growing up after marriage. They may discover things about themselves, discover new capabilities and talents, during marriage. If the spouse cannot accept the change in his partner, what then?

If people think that legally recognizing “irreconcilable differences” as a ground for the dissolution of marriage will lead to whimsical divorces, I think that’s worth a deeper discussion. The moralists would say that even when the love and passion have gone, the commitment remains and that commitment should be enough to keep a couple together. Commitment to what? To vows they did not write but merely repeated in a ritual? Is that more important than being allowed to take and travel the path that can make a person whole and realize the best that he can be?

What about the children? Children don’t thrive in unhappy homes.

A fruitful marriage is an adventure, not a sacrifice. It isn’t a chain around one’s neck but a partnership that allows growth and fulfillment. Sadly, we live in a culture where mistakes are punished. Instead of encouraging second or even third chances, and allowing a person to rebuild his life, a person caught in a bad marriage is simply expected to endure. What crap.

As an obiter dictum, it’s tempting to say that the filing of the Divorce Bill appears too conveniently “timely”. Considering how devoutly Catholic the Aquino family is, perhaps, someone thought that the Divorce Bill might gain support from Malacañang if only to give Kris Aquino a chance to remarry and co-habit with another man in the future without any moral and social stigma. Just a passing thought, really.

But when President Aquino’s comments on the Divorce Bill were sought, that passing thought became a persistent thought. He was asked about this by the media, I saw the video on television, and he said that married couples who are legally separated should be allowed to remarry. Despite saying that divorce was a “no-no”, that doesn’t sound like an anti-divorce statement to me because one of the most significant legal implications of divorce is the ability of the divorced parties to remarry — something that is only available in cases of annulment of marriage which is an entirely different thing altogether.

So when President Aquino says legally separated couples should be allowed to remarry, he was actually introducing a new legal concept which is akin to divorce where a married couple dissolves a legally valid marriage and, after the dissolution, they are allowed to remarry. Of course, he won’t call it divorce — that’s risking the ire of the mighty Catholic Church but, in substance, there’s no other name for what he proposes albeit minus the “irreconcilable differences” part.

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Comments

  1. damnvixen says:

    thank you for the insight.. this really cemented my views on divorce. purists can say all they want but at the end of the day its our peace of mind we have to face and sleep with. everybody should be able to make a choice for their and their childrens good. ^^

    The ViXeN's LaiR

  2. Jhay says:

    Perhaps Gabriela should approach Kris Aquino for support or publicity for the divorce bill. I'm sure there are a lot out there in favor of it. Which makes it much easier to get passed into law despite opposition from the Church.

  3. ashley says:

    Couldn't agree more. I respect that church wants to as much as possible preserve familiy ties in the Philippines but would they rather see kids grow in a hostile environment, see how men mistreat women, women look down to men? I can just go on and on and on. Bottomline, FREE WILL. Not even church can dictate what can happen for the rest of our lives. Each one of us deserves to be happy and there has to be a way to get out of a bad situation. If Philippine LEADERS do care on the well being of women and children, DIVORCE BILL should be legalized in the Philippines. It doesn't make sense to have Republic Act No. 9262 providing protective measures fof Women and Children if there's no PERMANENT way to get out of the situation if the abuser is the father or husband of the victim. How this affects the children? If I am the mother of the victim whom the abuser is my husband, I wouldn't wanna stay married to a man who have hurt my children in any way!

    • Jessi says:

      I agree! If the government would be willing to protect the woman or her children for the rest of their lives from a spouse/father who does nothing but trouble, then go HELL YEAH they may not approved divorce! but if they can't then how can the spouse/children separate from those human turned DEMONS?? likewise for fathers** whose cheating wife knows nothing but to get money or does nothing but trouble as well…

  4. bah, maging hero si Tetay , she wanted out of her failed marriage,by legal separation and allowed her to marry, kasi the present family code or law does not accord with her demands to allow her an annulment so she can remarry.
    .
    Bon, iba na talaga ang kapatid ay presidente.
    They can twist the law ,
    After all, big brother IS around.

    • A says:

      Whether or not Kris Aquino benefits, in this PARTICULAR ISSUE, is irrelevant.
      As Ms. Connie pointed out, hindi lang si Kris Aquino ang makikinabang dyan. Many women who need release from terrible marriages need this bill.
      In this case, I don't mind if "They can twist the law," blah blah blah.

      • Twin-Skies says:

        Well-said.

        Parading Kris around as a reason not to push for divorce is at best a red herring. She does not represent the majority of the population that may have genuine grounds for divorce.

  5. biyay says:

    exactly my sentiments on the issue. opponents of the bill make it appear that the family will deteriorate if divorce will be made available. what they refuse to realize is that, if there is already a problem in the family that refuses to be resolved, i.e. domestic violence, the family is ALREADY deteriorating, even without the divorce bill.

    if they are really serious about maintaining the sanctity of the family, the Congress should draft a law requiring couples who, before they can undergo legal separation or annulment proceedings, to undergo marriage counseling, where there are real efforts for the couple to resolve their problems.

  6. Very good article! I hope this reaches all the couples – married, separated, planning to get married – in the Philippines.

  7. Mae says:

    I hate that the church thinks that once they've already made their say about an issue (reproductive health bill, divorce bill) then everyone should bow down to it because they said so.

    I hate that the government officials in this country think that they should listen to whatever the church is saying because they don't want to "lose the votes" that the church can reach.

    Ack! What this country needs is a politician who has balls and can tell the church to just shut up. And if they don't want a particular law, then instruct those people who listen to them to not use any condoms or to divorce their spouses no matter what happens to them. =/

  8. Twin-Skies says:

    I wonder if these so-called "moralists" against divorce ever realize that a good number of the news reports of child abuse involve married couples, specifically abusive spouses who also have a record of beating their married partner for years before they're ever arrested.

  9. Twin-Skies says:

    Well said, Tita Connie. The Church does not hold a monopoly on the definition of a marriage, so they should really learn to shut the fuck up.

  10. Trosp says:

    I'm just wondering these so called "moralist" are calling those pro divorce. Immoralist? (And how one defines "moral"?)

    Actually, this issue is not as simple as it looks. A lot of things have to be factored and I'm not seeing any convincing data that would warrant in prioritizing it in the present congress.

    Assuming that there is no religion factor in the issue, don't we need the the below information?

    Data to show such as how many broken union which are in fact were not really legal union. Demography of the occurrences of separation for legal union and for informal union, etc that are needed (not just as nice to have) for a more meaningful discussion. How many child abuses has this "disturbed union" is inflicting? How many failed legal union do we really have in the our country?

    Let's talk the talk and walk the walk.

    What it seems to me right now based on my anecdotal observation is that most of the legal annulments in our country are primarily for selfish pleasure. Eh di papano na lang kung may divorce na. Of course I don't have the data and I hope those who's going to question my anecdotal observations should have their cited data for everybody's lesson-learned-for-today.

    Heh, what about if the legal union of equal sex (or brother to brother or sister to sister or brother to sister or father to daughter or man to cow, etc) that can possibly be legalized in our country (it seems, eventually, anything goes), how will they proceed with divorce proceedings? (Don't tell me that same sex legal union is different from brother to brother etc. from the point of being PC.)

    Nah, divorce is not done yet. Perhaps, I'm just too proactive…

    How about divorce through SMS or texting? Google it…

    • Trosp says:

      My comment –

      "What it seems to me right now based on my anecdotal observation is that most of the legal annulments in our country are primarily for selfish pleasure"

      Example is Chrissie (not Crazy, dummy…) aka Kris.

      • A says:

        "Heh, what about if the legal union of equal sex (or brother to brother or sister to sister or brother to sister or father to daughter or man to cow, etc) that can possibly be legalized in our country (it seems, eventually, anything goes), how will they proceed with divorce proceedings? (Don’t tell me that same sex legal union is different from brother to brother etc. from the point of being PC.)"

        No, it's not the same. And no, it's not about being PC, it's about simple logic. IF we assume that gay marriage = marriage between two brothers (your assertion), then hetero marriage = marriage between brother and sister.

        In any case, if lesbians are allowed to marry, and divorce is legal, then they could get divorced too. It's as simple as that.

        As for annulments being for selfish reasons… Well, if a woman wants to escape an abusive marriage and share her life with someone who truly cares for her, then that reason, no matter how "selfish" it is, is valid in my opinion. Targeting Kris Aquino is such a straw-man argument; just because a few abuse their right, doesn't mean that everyone else who has legitimate reasons should suffer.

        ALTHOUGH I do agree with you. Neither those who are pro-divorce nor those who oppose it have given enough scientific, factual arguments, and there are still a lot of questions to be answered.

        • Twin-Skies says:

          Using Kris Aquino as an example isn't just a strawman – it's plain grasping at straws if that's the only rational argument one can ever give as to why divorces are wrong.

    • Twin-Skies says:

      Did you just compare same-sex marriages to incest and bestiality?

      Do read up more on this topic before you fire off another ignorant screed.

      • Trosp says:

        Did I directly indicated in my comment that same-sex marriage is about sexual intercourse? Perhaps you're view on marriage is it always involve sexual intercourse.

        Do read and comprehend the entirety of my comment before you classify it as an ignorant screed.

        On the other hand, why bother. In our exchanges of pleasantries in previous posts of this blog, the limitation of your comprehension was already evident.

        • A says:

          No, you did not "directly indicated" it, you implied it.

          If no implication at all was to be made or was meant, then your comment about incest and bestiality (man to cow? Seriously?) was of no use, and pointless.

          And as far as the law is concerned, sexual intercourse = consummation of marriage (correct me if I'm wrong).

          I don't always agree with Twin-Skies, but his comments are always sensible and reasonable.

          "On the other hand, why bother. In our exchanges of pleasantries in previous posts of this blog, the limitation of your comprehension was already evident." Or your comments are garbled or inconsistent.

          • Twin-Skies says:

            @A says

            Thank you for the vote of confidence. I've been following the gay rights movement for a while now, and one of the standard arguments that's always been propped up by anti-gay bible thumpers is that of gays=sodomy=incest=bestiality.

            It doesn't matter if the examples given pertain to sexual intercourse or marriage – the bottom line is that such a comparison is intellectually dishonest and bigoted. Hearing it from Trosp and people like him just pisses me off.

          • Trosp says:

            @TS

            I saved this one for my last comment regarding you –

            As you've commented –

            "It doesn’t matter if the examples given pertain to sexual intercourse or marriage – the bottom line is that such a comparison is intellectually dishonest and bigoted. Hearing it from Trosp and people like him just pisses me off."

            As if you're telling the readers of this blog that no matter what, both of you are absolutely right. Intellectually dishonest and bigoted???

            With that kind of mindset. I'd like to see both of you getting pissed off if somebody explains to you the reality of life. Again, you've to prove that I'm circulating an intellectually dishonest (you really know its definition?) information and as of now you're just distorting almost everything I've commented.

            To both of you – two wrongs don't make right. How aptly…

          • Trosp says:

            So A what is garbled and inconsistent? Please cite them and I'll be willing to apologize to the owner of this blog for spreading false information and to its readers if I'm factually wrong.

            In my previous comment regarding these interesting people, it's all about political correctness or political correctness gone mad and how I want to relate their cause with the divorce issue. Never anything on those juicy sexual intercourse innuendos which you want to misdirect the readers of this blog.

            If there is a judicial ruling in some states of US of America that legalized same-sex marriage citing the equal protection clause of their 14th Amendment, logically, what is to prevent those queers (google how LGBT evolved to LGBTQ – Q stands for Queers) to seek relief based on that same judicial ruling? (From the point of being politically correct.)

            One of political correctness core definition is everybody deserves the same rights.

            If the ruling favors them, so be it. I just related it to the divorce issue in this blog. Then it's done.

            As for man to cow marriage, you didn't wonder why I use cow instead of other animals? Bestiality never came into my mind. How about including in your assumption that cow is treated sacred in some countries?

          • Twin-Skies says:

            A cow is still an animal Trosp, regardless if it's considered by some countries – India comes to mind – sacred or not.

          • Twin-Skies says:

            For those wondering, I believe Trosp was talking about the recent repeal of proposition 8
            http://www.pamshouseblend.com/diary/17030/open-th

          • Trosp says:

            Talagang may problema ka sa reading comprehension. Psychiatrist na ang next recommendation ko.

          • Twin-Skies says:

            Actually, I was thinking I need an optometrist after how badly I fudged that reading earlier. It's been more than a year since my last checkup IIRC

          • Trosp says:

            @A

            Your comment in parenthesis –

            (No, you did not “directly indicated” it, you implied it.)

            And the implication is whatever satisfies your interpretation or agenda? Please share us on how did you arrive that that is the implication of my comment. Cite my actual comment please.

            Next –

            (If no implication at all was to be made or was meant, then your comment about incest and bestiality (man to cow? Seriously?) was of no use, and pointless.)

            Jeez, what is that comment? Are you sure you're ok? Read my previous comment on man to cow thing. In your case, I'm sure it will not help. Your mind is made up (at napasubo na).

            (And as far as the law is concerned, sexual intercourse = consummation of marriage (correct me if I’m wrong).

            I don't have to correct you if you're wrong. Only a clueless person would make that kind of argument. I would rather let it go. I often interchange cluelessness with stupidity, just pardon me, but that kind of comment? BTW, can you cite that law?

            (“On the other hand, why bother. In our exchanges of pleasantries in previous posts of this blog, the limitation of your comprehension was already evident.” Or your comments are garbled or inconsistent.)

            And what are those? What should I call you if you can't come up with anything that is garbled and inconsistent from my previous comments? Better to cite them as it is.

        • Teka, teka, isn't it a fact that the opponents of same-sex marriage oppose because they consider sex between people of the same gender to be a perversion?

          • Twin-Skies says:

            Among other reasons, yes.

            But saying that gays can't marry because one thinks it's gross is a poor argument – I could use that same argument to say that fat people and ugly people can't marry for the same reasons. XD

            Or if you're referring to a perversion of "natural law" as some opponents claim, well, then somebody better tell bonobos that what they're doing is unnatural.

          • Trosp says:

            My opinion, it's a perversion if it's come to marriage or legal union, as long as they involve the religion in consummating their legal union. They can have the law but why include the religion?

            As of sex between people of the same sex, they can do it anywhere, anytime, and I would not call it a sexual intercourse. I reserve it exclusively on the opposite sexes people.

            That is something similar to perversion. It's not a sexual intercourse.

            Or maybe just over-fondling each other.

          • Twin-Skies says:

            Trosp, these people are looking for something more than a sex partner. They're looking for long-term companionship with somebody they're in love with. And furthermore they're looking for civil unions over religious marriages, unless they're fortunate to have a local church that's willing to wed them,.

            [As of sex between people of the same sex, they can do it anywhere, anytime, and I would not call it a sexual intercourse. I reserve it exclusively on the opposite sexes people. ]

            It makes me queasy thinking of too tbh, but that's not really a rational opinion. That's our personal bias getting in the way. Getting past the "ick" factor that they're the same gender, I don't see how that's wrong, so long as it happens between two consenting adults.

          • Trosp says:

            By definition in encyclopedia.thefreedictionary –

            (Of course, something not in my own words, it's verbatim from the source.)

            Sexual intercourse, in its biological sense, is the act in which the male reproductive organ (in humans and other higher animals) enters the female reproductive tract, called copulation or coitus in other reference.[1] The two entities may be of opposite sexes, or they may be hermaphroditic, as is the case with snails.

            And in my own words, I'm glad that you also believe that a union of any gender whether it's legal or "illegal" is also companionship.

            Cheers!

          • d0d0ng says:

            The reason of anti same-sex marriage is because of tradition. The tradition of marriage is between a man and a woman. If the revisionists would like to change the tradition, then they are welcome to pass a law and let the people vote on it. Simply, they don't have the vote.

            So their best recourse is through a judge by way of constructive interpretation of under equal protection clause.

            The judge decision is expected to be overturned at the US Supreme Court because equal protection clause cannot make a law which does not exist in the first place – a marriage of same sex. Currently, the law is same sex union and not same sex marriage.

          • Twin-Skies says:

            The judge overruled the votes because as he has flatly announced in his decision, citizens CANNOT vote on the civil rights of another individual. How'd you like it if the situation were reversed, and people were allowed to vote who you can marry?

            And furthermore, "traditions" are not something static. They change along with the society they're attached to. If the always followed "tradition," they wouldn't allow blacks to marry whites, and women still wouldn't be able to vote.

            And furthermore, the Prop 8's defenders were found lacking in any solid evidence as to why same sex marriage was detrimental to the state. To quote a section of Judge Walker's decision on the matter (page 24)

            [For the reasons stated in the sections that follow, the evidence presented at trial fatally undermines the premises underlying proponents' proffered rationales for Proposition 8. An
            initiative measure adopted by the voters deserves great respect. The considered views and opinions of even the most highly qualified scholars and experts seldom outweigh the determinations of the voters. When challenged, however, the voters' determinations must
            find at least some support in evidence. This is especially so when those determinations enact into law classifications of persons. Conjecture, speculation and fears are not enough. Still less will the moral disapprobation of a group or class of citizens suffice,
            no matter how large the majority that shares that view. The evidence demonstrated beyond serious reckoning that Proposition 8 finds support only in such disapproval. As such, Proposition 8 is beyond the constitutional reach of the voters or their representatives.]

            Fear-mongering and religious dogma do not make for very solid evidence.

          • d0d0ng says:

            Obviously, you are not aware that the current federal DOMA law of 1996 defined marriage as between opposite sex for federal purposes. This is the greatest obstacle and ultimate goal by the LGBT to have it repealed. But US Congress is not in position to do that if you consider the electorate who are against same sex union.

            So the fight is done at state level through State Supreme Court and then to be decided at US Court. The fight is currently played out in California.

            The State judge is always favorable to the cause LGBT as what happened in California. But US court is another thing. To be specific, the US Court of Appeals overturned the lower court ruling that prohibition of same sex relationships violated the Constitution.

            It ruled in 2006 that "laws limiting the state-recognized institution of marriage to heterosexual couples do NOT violate the Constitution of the United States."

            So California Judge Walker's ruling that Prop8 violated equal protection clause will meet the same fate.

          • d0d0ng says:

            Let us do it in the most obvious manner. Judge Walker is gay (despite being appointed to the court by 2 republican presidents) and his ruling was already expected to uphold gay's cause. But bench ruling will not be enough to override the will of the people.

          • Trosp says:

            Judge Walker a gay???

            Ha ha ha ha…

            From what I read, he's just a plain stupid leftard.

          • d0d0ng says:

            Actually, he is very smart gay. As a lawyer, he represented the US Olympic Committee in a lawsuit that prohibited the use of title "Gay Olympics". He courted the ire of democrats and the LGBTs as a result. But that also put him to the bench by the 2 republican presidents – Reagan in 1987 and Bush in 1989.

            Once in the bench, you can exercise your power with ease. In 1999, Walker rejected the parents argument that their son's religious right were violated by the teacher's pro-gay instructions. In 2005, he sided with City of Oakland against 2 employees who distributed flyers promoting natural family, marriage and family values.

          • You mean cultural tradition based on prevalent religious and moral norms — which do not recognize the status and rights of homosexuals.

          • d0d0ng says:

            Correct. The status and rights of homosexuals are currently recognized under same-sex union law which afforded benefits to partners among others.

          • Trosp says:

            If I'm not mistaken, we are talking about judicial rulings in US of America. This Proponent 8 latest judicial reversal ruling was from Judge Vance Walker. Google him on how (and where) he based his verdict on his judicial rulings. Google it.

            This one is very interesting from gays' right advocate –
            http://www.nydailynews.com/opinions/2010/08/11/20

            And another question that seems an answer is still elusive for me – is same sex marriage a civil right?
            http://sixties-l.blogspot.com/2010/08/is-gay-marr

    • Twin-Skies says:

      [Data to show such as how many broken union which are in fact were not really legal union. Demography of the occurrences of separation for legal union and for informal union, etc that are needed (not just as nice to have) for a more meaningful discussion. How many child abuses has this “disturbed union” is inflicting? How many failed legal union do we really have in the our country?]

      Citations please. You mention data, then present it. As you say, let us "Let’s talk the talk and walk the walk." ;)

      [What it seems to me right now based on my anecdotal observation is that most of the legal annulments in our country are primarily for selfish pleasure.]

      And there is your problem right there. Anecdotal accounts are hardly considered accurate data for any argument. What you have witnessed may not necessarily represent the actual trend. Although it makes for good gossip.

      [Did I directly indicated in my comment that same-sex marriage is about sexual intercourse? Perhaps you’re view on marriage is it always involve sexual intercourse. ]

      No it isn't, and I'm glad we agree with that.

      But you have also destroyed your own argument – by outright admitting that same-sex marriage is more than just about sex, you have also rendered null your own argument about marrying an animal. Marriage requires consent from another adult – so how does one get a "Yes." from a horse?

      You are obviously talking out of your ass here.

      [On the other hand, why bother. In our exchanges of pleasantries in previous posts of this blog, the limitation of your comprehension was already evident.]

      You mean I was constantly calling you out for being condescending.

      • Trosp says:

        TS, tsk tsk tsk.

        The more you involved yourself in the discussion involving my comment, the more you sink yourself in the depth of shamelessness as far as reading comprehension is concerned. As I've often commented, everybody has the right to be clueless (how I wish to replace that "clueless" word with a more fitting one just exclusively in your case). You're again abusing that right.

        Your comment in parenthesis-

        ([Data to show such as how many broken union which are in fact were not really legal union. Demography of the occurrences of separation for legal union and for informal union, etc that are needed (not just as nice to have) for a more meaningful discussion. How many child abuses has this “disturbed union” is inflicting? How many failed legal union do we really have in the our country?]

        Citations please. You mention data, then present it. As you say, let us “Let’s talk the talk and walk the walk.” ;) )

        You're nitpicking. This what is in my comment –

        Assuming that there is no religion factor in the issue, don’t we need the the below information?

        Data to show such as how many broken union which are in fact were not really legal union. Demography of the occurrences of separation for legal union and for informal union, etc that are needed (not just as nice to have) for a more meaningful discussion. How many child abuses has this “disturbed union” is inflicting? How many failed legal union do we really have in the our country?

        Picking only what will suit your agenda? It's not surprising.

        The next one –

        ([Did I directly indicated in my comment that same-sex marriage is about sexual intercourse? Perhaps you’re view on marriage is it always involve sexual intercourse. ]

        No it isn’t, and I’m glad we agree with that.)

        Have I commented that same-sex is about sexual intercourse?

        Taker this advice seriously, demand a refund from whoever have taught you reading comprehension. If they don't allow that, demand that you can take it again free of charge and has the option to repeat the course free of charge again and again at your own discretion.

        (But you have also destroyed your own argument – by outright admitting that same-sex marriage is more than just about sex, you have also rendered null your own argument about marrying an animal. Marriage requires consent from another adult – so how does one get a “Yes.” from a horse?)

        Taker this advice seriously, demand a refund from whoever have taught you reading comprehension. If they don't allow that, demand that you can take it again free of charge and has the option to repeat the course free of charge again and again at your own discretion.

        BTW, you're free to read my previous comment about that man to cow thing without any disclaimer from me.

        Next one –

        (You mean I was constantly calling you out for being condescending.)

        When was the time you've commented that? If you can't show you've commented that, then, aside from being clueless or whatever, what else can I call you? Calling you liar would be a compliment in your favor.

        • Trosp says:

          @TS

          My apology. My comment involving you has exceeded two lines. I know beyond that is already complicated for you.

        • Twin-Skies says:

          Well I'm done talking to you then. If your only recourse is to ramble on with petty namecalling and and jeers, you're not worth the time.

          So please, enjoy your gloating. Pretend I'm not here.

          • Trosp says:

            Jeez, is that your best shot???

            Avoiding to cite any of your claims about my comments?

            Hindi ka nahihiya? Or you don't have that one?

          • Trosp says:

            Come on, I'm very civil on whatever civility can take. I don't use profanity anymore.

            Your only problem with me is I can always explain the facts of my opinion.

            How about giving me a problem by explaining me the facts of your opinion?

          • Twin-Skies says:

            Okay, I read your comment again.

            I really did misinterpret it. I'm rather ashamed to say I jumped the gun there, and that my attacks are unprovoked. I offer no excuses for this mistake, and hope you'd be gracious enough to call off the hostilities.

            And as my attempt at setting things right, I'd like to add my own insight to your comment:

            I would actually look forward to seeing some solid data backing whatever decision the admin will take here. It's getting rather tiresome watching them squabble over problems like this using nothing but moral conjecture, false assumptions, and claims from the RCC.

          • Twin-Skies says:

            Note to self: Perhaps another eye exam is in order given how hard it's been to read small text lately.

          • Trosp says:

            Sir,

            No harm no foul. We can always have a healthy discussion evrytime in this blog .

          • Twin-Skies says:

            What claims?

            All I did was ask for citations/references to back up your assertions earlier, and you're now launching petty insults, namecalling, and calling my mental health into question.

            You're being a troll.

          • A says:

            Let me answer that with the very same answer you gave me: re-read my comments and think about it,it's there.

            Ok, to give you the benefit of the doubt, please DO enlighten me, kind sir, so we know clea: what WAS the reason you brought up marriage between "brother to brother" or "brother to sister', all in the same breath as LGBT marriage?

            At first glance, it really would seem that you were comparing them, lumping them in one category. I'll concede that maybe some of us took it wrongly–and I do agree with your last line, that "One of political correctness core definition is everybody deserves the same rights."–but as I said, in my first comment, "In any case, if lesbians are allowed to marry, and divorce is legal, then they could get divorced too. It’s as simple as that.."

            It just seems strange that Divorce would lead to passing references to marriage between siblings or animals.

            If I had offended you then I apologize, it was not right to call you names. It's just that–as Twin-Skies mentioned–when people mention divorce, homosexuality, and "brother to brother/brother to cow marriage" it sounds very similar to rhetoric spouted off by fundies like Jerry Falwell et al. A claim that's called "the snowball effect."

          • A says:

            I was confused. It was meant for Trosp, not Twin Skies. Apologies for the confusion

  11. KK says:

    I have witnessed my grandparents celebrate their 50th Wedding Anniversary and have seen my parent's love for each other, I take them as my role models as I navigate my own married life.

    However, not all marriages are made in heaven. I had a close friend who committed suicide because of marital problems. I believe that divorce gives people a second chance and be able to move on with their lives rather than driven to a point of no return. When marriage becomes a chain for a battered wife, divorce should be a saving grace.

    The children are hurt the most in a divorce. My neighbors recently divorced and I see the effects on their 5 year old boy. He is confused and is very troubled. He has a twin sister and she's taking the situation in stride. However, it's best for his parents to part ways, it is more detrimental for the children to have their parents stay together and see them fight all the time. Having the laws for divorce in place, couples are forced to sort out how their children will be provided and care for.

    I have a sister-in-law who had to flee from her marriage, her little son in tow because her first husband was no longer in his right mind due to drugs and alcohol. The last straw was having to dodge bullets. She got a divorce, she has re-married, and have been happily married for 10+ years.

    When I listen to a story and look into the eyes of the person who lived it, it makes me realize that had there not been a divorce… this person standing before me may not be here to tell the story.

    Wether or not the Church blesses it or the Government in the Philippines allow Divorce, chances are some married couples will have happy/successful marriages and their are some who will fall apart. It is better to have the provisions to sort out the separation of lives and it be most beneficial for those who need it most- the children who have no clue why they are born into parents who can no longer stand each other.

    • alaser292 says:

      I agree that each situation is different, we can't judge people's decisions concerning divorce or annulment. Everyone should have the opportunity to do what's best for themself and their family.

  12. rachiel ann san gil says:

    well i guess marriage has always seen as a vow between two person rather than just a testament of papers conceiling an agreement to stay in love forever. im not yet married and yet it does'nt mean that i lack the knowledge for it. Why do we pinoys push through something that seems right but in its strict sense is not. We should empower women and not push them to divorce..we should strengthen the laws that protects women rather than push divorce, there are a lot of issues that needs more attention if only we are gonna be sensitive to it..

  13. Nate Sabo says:

    I do understand that divorce is a bad thing but sometimes it is necessary. If the marriage is only annulled, there is still a connection between the pair. And if there are serious problems between these two people then a constant connection is not a positive thing. I do also understand that divorce is frowned upon but there is no reason to punish the victim in the relationship for their spouse's actions. The final point being that it should be legal to divorce someone.

  14. alaser292 says:

    This was a really insightful article. As a Catholic I have grown up with the mindset that divorce is wrong and that two persons have made vows to eachother that should not be broken. However, after reading this article I can see how in some circumstances it would be best to file for divorce since annulments are so hard to get. It really depends on the situation.

  15. Jessi says:

    As to the approval of divorce in the Philippines, the GROUNDS of DIVORCE doesn't necessarily have to be the same with that of the other countries– do we have to pattern it to US? Europe? or any other?? NO! We can define the GROUNDS of DIVORCE in the Philippines depending on "our" moral standards and beliefs. Like, battered women? Don't they have the right to separate and live their lives away from those husbands? or Husbands whose wife has cheated on him repeatedly? Aren't those physical or psychological abuses which can't be mended by simple sorries? WE CAN DEFINE OUR OWN GROUNDS OF DIVORCE, so as not to promote selfish reasons.. (as several examples have been given above). THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO CAN'T JUST USE DIVORCE for PERSONAL DIFFERENCES/REASONS — which we can indicate in the DIVORCE BILL. BUT THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO DESERVES TO BE SEPARATED FROM THEIR "LEGAL" SPOUSE, TOO.

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